Incorrect keyboard shortcut

Andrew · 2010-08-26 19:23

Settings menu / Filters has the shortcut Alt+F, which is obviously the universally used (in English-language apps anyway) shortcut for the top-level File menu.

Obviously, the Filters shortcut key has to be changed. Maybe Alt+I (if it's not used elsewhere already)?

Edit: I meant Ctrl+I above.

Last edited by Andrew (2010-08-30 17:50)

Stefan · 2010-08-26 21:17

The shortcut for the file menu is "Alt,F", that one for the filter dialog is "Alt+F"

I think that's common pratice for the top level menus: press and release the Alt-key,
then the accelerators (underlined chars) are shown and can be pressed.
That most people press Alt+key together to use the top level menu is common but not the right way.

But, since ReNamer didn't use that much shortcuts (like e.g. an Text Editor) there should most combinations
be free and we can suggest Denis to use an better one.
That one you mentioned Alt+I is already used and will pop-up an Info-dialog.
But Ctrl+F seams to be free?

Andrew · 2010-08-28 21:49

Stefan wrote:

The shortcut for the file menu is "Alt,F", that one for the filter dialog is "Alt+F"
I think that's common pratice for the top level menus: press and release the Alt-key,
then the accelerators (underlined chars) are shown and can be pressed.
That most people press Alt+key together to use the top level menu is common but not the right way.

I'm sorry Stefan, but for top-level menus, pressing Alt and then the underlined letter, or pressing F10 and then the underlined letter, or pressing Alt+Underlined letter are exactly the same. So there's absolutely no difference between Alt,F and Alt+F in Windows.

See this Microsoft KnowledgeBase Article titled Keyboard shortcuts for Windows for more: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/126449. In the General keyboard-only commands section, it's clearly mentioned that:

Microsoft wrote:

ALT+underlined letter in menu: Opens the menu

I also have Microsoft's official UI design docs with me, and they state the same. So pressing Alt+Underlined letter to open a top-level menu in Windows is absolutely the right and sanctioned way.

Stefan wrote:

But Ctrl+F seams to be free?

If it is, that is absolutely fine with me. As far as possible any program's functions (or the major parts at least) should be accessible via the keyboard. This helps not only visually impaired people, but also power users who prefer to use keyboard shortcuts in combination with the mouse to speed up their work (since this way both hands can be used simultaneously).

Stefan · 2010-08-29 09:40

EDIT: i am not sure if "accelerator" and "shortcut" are really the right term to distinguish this both actions.
---

They are not exactly the same.
The works exactly the same as long as Alt+F is not assigned as shortcut to an command.

The key combination for the menu are accelerators and work as follow:
- press and release Alt-key
- the accelerators are shown (underline char)
- press one accelerator to continue like 'F' for 'File' menu, then 'O' for 'Open'
(after pressing and releasing the Alt-key you can navigate the menu by just pressing an single key)

The key combination for an command are shortcuts and work as follow:
- press the shortcut keys as combination like Alt+F
(after pressing the shortcut just one command is executed)

If one know this rules they both accelerator and shortcut can co-exist.
But for applications with not many menu items and command shortcuts
there is no need to use an key-combination more then one time.
It's an other story with apps like an text editor with much more menu items and commands.
If you want to do many thinks with the keyboard you have to live with co-existence of key-combination.

- - -

Sorry, i don't know all english words to explain it better.
But i believe the people who wrote the article you mentioned are just that: people. They just write what they see and believe.

But with my explanation above you can test and understand it yourself:
* To open the 'File'-menu the key-combination is Alt,F
* Alt+F works too, but only because the application drops the scan code of the Alt-key (if there is
no command-shortcut 'Alt+F' found) and just use the remaining code for 'F'

In other works:
- i press Alt+F
- the app gets this scan code, lets say '1000' for 'Alt' and '69' for 'F' so it gets '1069'
- now the app looks if there is an command shortcut for '1069' / 'Alt+F'
----- if (yes) the app execute this command
------------- else the app take off '1000' from '1069' and get '69' for 'F',
------------- shows the accelerators in the menu and try to find an accelerator 'F'

You can test this with ReNamer and 'Alt+F' and 'Alt+S'
For 'Alt+F' the app finds an command shortcut and execute them
For 'Alt+S' the app finds no command and opens the 'Settings'-menu
For 'Alt+D' the app finds nothing
Pressing 'Alt' then 'F' the app shows the accelerators and opens then the 'File'-menu

You can test this with other apps too, e.g. with text editors.

The main point here is that the applications do many things in the back so we don't see what really happens.
This is the same for web browsers: the full URL is something like "http://www.name.tld" but we enter
only "www.name.tld" or "name.tld" or today even "name" only. That's wrong. But the app aids us and do things
in the back to make things right.

Last edited by Stefan (2010-08-29 09:44)

Andrew · 2010-08-29 22:32

Stefan wrote:

They are not exactly the same.
The works exactly the same as long as Alt+F is not assigned as shortcut to an command.

This comment simply does not make any sense at all. Do you know that keyboard shortcuts, even well-known ones such as Ctrl+C for Copy, are not exclusive and binding on a programmer? So I can also say something like "Edit menu > Copy and Ctrl+C work exactly the same as long as Ctrl+C is not assigned as shortcut to another command". The point I was trying to make is, that programmatically as far as Windows is concerned, activating a top-level menu item by any of the following methods generates the exact same message:

By using the mouse
By pressing Alt and then an Access Key (underlined letter)
By pressing F10 and then an Access Key (underlined letter)
By pressing Alt+Access Key (underlined letter)

The WM_COMMAND message is sent to the application in each case. So let me repeat, as long as a top-level menu's Access Key is not assigned to multiple items (which is not recommended anyway), the above are all functionally equivalent.

Stefan wrote:

If one know this rules they both accelerator and shortcut can co-exist.

Sorry, but no. Windows programmers would be crazy if all of them expected users to press Alt then F to open the File menu, and Alt+F to open some program dialog.

Stefan wrote:

It's an other story with apps like an text editor with much more menu items and commands.
If you want to do many thinks with the keyboard you have to live with co-existence of key-combination.

Again, a big NO. The problem is, you're mixing up menu access keys and keyboard shortcuts. Here's what the Windows UI Guidelines state about access keys and keyboard shortcuts:

Microsoft wrote:

Access keys have the following characteristics:
They use the Alt key plus an alphanumeric key.
They are primarily for accessibility.
They are assigned to all menus and most dialog box controls.
They aren't intended to be memorized, so they are documented directly in the UI by underlining the corresponding control label character.
By contrast, shortcut keys have the following characteristics:
They primarily use Ctrl and Function key sequences.
They are primarily for efficiency for advanced users.
They are assigned only to the most commonly used commands.
They are intended to be memorized, and are documented only in menus, tooltips, and Help.
They must be assigned consistently because they are memorized and not directly documented.

As you can clearly see from the first two guidelines, Alt+F should never have been used as a keyboard shortcut, whereas Ctrl+F is fine. Also, according to the very same guidelines, the letter F should be used preferably for File/Find/Font/Forward (of which only File is a commonly used top-level menu item and the rest are all items used inside menus). Finally, "co-existence of key-combination" is clearly not allowed or even recommended according to the guidelines and just plain and simple common-sense.

Stefan wrote:

But i believe the people who wrote the article you mentioned are just that: people. They just write what they see and believe.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes (though the MS KB and MSDN articles are peer- and public-reviewed many times and even revised as necessary). But one thing makes the people who wrote the article stand out, and that is that they work for Microsoft and more than likely program for them as well. They don't simply "believe", they "know", since they or their co-workers coded it. So who do you want people to believe, you or Microsoft, regarding their own product?

Stefan wrote:

This is the same for web browsers: the full URL is something like "http://www.name.tld" but we enter
only "www.name.tld" or "name.tld" or today even "name" only. That's wrong. But the app aids us and do things
in the back to make things right.

Your browser analogy is way off the mark since I have mentioned time and again that Alt+Access Key is NOT 'wrong'. So it's not as if every Windows application on this planet is helping us out by converting the 'wrong' Alt+Access Key method into the 'right' Alt,Access Key one. Alt+Access Key is very much right, and will continue to be so according to Microsoft and thus me. I really do not want to argue this point further. Frankly, if I haven't managed to convince you yet, then nothing will, so let's just believe whatever we both want to believe, ok?

However the important point is that irrespective of what you believe, in practice keeping Alt+F as a shortcut key and expecting users to distinguish between Alt,F and Alt+F is just plain wrong. Also, I don't need to test any other apps (such as text editors) to know that such overriding/duplication is the wrong thing to do, for like I said above, that is just common-sense. The letter F is a very commonly-used top-level menu access key and that is what users expect, so that is what they should get. For the Filters dialog, Ctrl+F is fine, or Ctrl+I or whatever else is free (should be preferably Ctrl+Letter if one follows the guidelines). So now it is up to Denis to fix it.

P.S. Phew! Frankly, I didn't expect such a simple (and trivial) bug report to balloon up into an argument over Windows UI design principles!

Stefan · 2010-08-30 16:55

Andrew wrote:

Stefan wrote:
They are not exactly the same.
The works exactly the same as long as Alt+F is not assigned as shortcut to an command.
This comment simply does not make any sense at all. Do you know that keyboard shortcuts, even well-known ones such as Ctrl+C for Copy, are not exclusive and binding on a programmer?

Oh well man, so just extend my sentence to:
"The works exactly the same as long as Alt+F is not assigned as shortcut to an command or used as an system wide shortcut."
But the message is still the same.

So let me repeat, as long as a top-level menu's Access Key is not assigned
to multiple items (which is not recommended anyway), the above are all functionally equivalent.

Right. But only "as long"! That's the point.

Stefan wrote:
If one know this rules they both accelerator and shortcut can co-exist.
Sorry, but no. Windows programmers would be crazy if all of them expected users to press Alt then F to open the File menu, and Alt+F to open some program dialog.

I don't believe they are crazy, but some do this.
See my example with text editor and file manager. Some just run out of possible combinations.
And this is no problem if you know Alt,F and Alt+F are different "shortcuts".

Stefan wrote:
It's an other story with apps like an text editor with much more menu items and commands.
If you want to do many thinks with the keyboard you have to live with co-existence of key-combination.
Again, a big NO. The problem is, you're mixing up menu access keys and keyboard shortcuts.

Here's what the Windows UI Guidelines state about access keys and keyboard shortcuts:

I know what they write. But they who wrote this are not the same as who code this. Better believe what you can find out yourself.

Microsoft wrote:
Access keys have the following characteristics:
They use the Alt key plus an alphanumeric key.
They are primarily for accessibility.
They are assigned to all menus and most dialog box controls.
They aren't intended to be memorized, so they are documented directly in the UI by underlining the corresponding control label character.
By contrast, shortcut keys have the following characteristics:
They primarily use Ctrl and Function key sequences.
They are primarily for efficiency for advanced users.
They are assigned only to the most commonly used commands.
They are intended to be memorized, and are documented only in menus, tooltips, and Help.
They must be assigned consistently because they are memorized and not directly documented.
As you can clearly see from the first two guidelines, Alt+F should never have been used as a keyboard shortcut, whereas Ctrl+F is fine.
Also, according to the very same guidelines, the letter F should be used preferably for File/Find/Font/Forward (of which only File is a commonly used top-level menu item and the rest are all items used inside menus). Finally, "co-existence of key-combination" is clearly not allowed or even recommended according to the guidelines and just plain and simple common-sense.

Ah, so it's only you want it the "microsoft guidline"-way
and use Alt+key only for menu and dialog items
and Ctrl+key for shortcuts?

Why do you want then "Alt+I" for "Filters" at first place? I know, it was surly an mistake.

Andrew wrote:

Obviously, the Filters shortcut key has to be changed. Maybe Alt+I (if it's not used elsewhere already)?

Stefan wrote:
But i believe the people who wrote the article you mentioned are just that: people. They just write what they see and believe.
Sure, everyone makes mistakes (though the MS KB and MSDN articles are peer- and public-reviewed many times and even revised as necessary). But one thing makes the people who wrote the article stand out, and that is that they work for Microsoft and more than likely program for them as well. They don't simply "believe", they "know", since they or their co-workers coded it. So who do you want people to believe, you or Microsoft, regarding their own product?

First the writers have not to be the same person who did the coding, so they may not know all about.
Second they didn't have to be an microsoft employee at all (maybe they are just recruit for this writing job in india)
Third people should believe there own testing, not the writer and not mine .

Stefan wrote:
This is the same for web browsers: the full URL is something like "http://www.name.tld" but we enter
only "www.name.tld" or "name.tld" or today even "name" only. That's wrong. But the app aids us and do things
in the back to make things right.
Your browser analogy is way off the mark since I have mentioned time and again that Alt+Access Key is NOT 'wrong'. So it's not as if every Windows application on this planet is helping us out by converting the 'wrong' Alt+Access Key method into the 'right' Alt,Access Key one. Alt+Access Key is very much right, and will continue to be so according to Microsoft and thus me. I really do not want to argue this point further. Frankly, if I haven't managed to convince you yet, then nothing will, so let's just believe whatever we both want to believe, ok?

My browser example has nothing to do with shortcuts at all, it's just to show you an example that you don't should believe all what you see

However the important point is that irrespective of what you believe, in practice keeping Alt+F as a shortcut key and expecting users to distinguish between Alt,F and Alt+F is just plain wrong. Also, I don't need to test any other apps (such as text editors) to know that such overriding/duplication is the wrong thing to do, for like I said above, that is just common-sense. The letter F is a very commonly-used top-level menu access key and that is what users expect, so that is what they should get. For the Filters dialog, Ctrl+F is fine, or Ctrl+I or whatever else is free (should be preferably Ctrl+Letter if one follows the guidelines). So now it is up to Denis to fix it.
P.S. Phew! Frankly, I didn't expect such a simple (and trivial) bug report to balloon up into an argument over Windows UI design principles!

I still agreed it's not the best to use an shortcut more then once, either with varieties,
and it's better to have two different keys for two different things. I only explain you it's no bug art all. It's an allowed behavior that "Alt,key" and "Alt+key" are used together and here for ReNamer this is just an overseen setup.

And as always with computers, many things mixed up as time goes by and guidelines are only... well, "guidelines" but not craved in stone

Sorry, i don't know all english words to explain it better.

CU

Andrew · 2010-08-30 17:49

Yes, that was a stupid mistake on my part and I meant Ctrl+I, not Alt+I.

Stefan wrote:

Right. But only "as long"! That's the point.

No, the real point is that the "as long" part is recommended by Microsoft itself, and also makes complete sense. Like I said, as long as Ctrl+C isn't overridden, it's common meaning is "Copy". Sure you can override it and expect your users to somehow not be confused, but which sane developer would consciously choose to do this in his app? Similarly, nothing prevents you from making Alt,F and Alt+F do different things, but all users expect Alt+F to work the same way as Alt,F and open the top-level menu (File), so why the heck would you deliberately do this and then tell your users that they can press Alt,F to open the menu and Alt+F to do something else?

Look, this whole protracted discussion was only because you said this:

Stefan wrote:

That most people press Alt+key together to use the top level menu is common but not the right way.

I just wanted to let you know that nowhere to my knowledge is it mentioned that Alt,Access Key is the 'right' way and Alt+Access Key is the 'wrong' way. You are the only person to state this. You may dismiss the MSDN and MS KB articles I have linked to simply by saying that MS hired someone to write it, though I know for sure many MSDN API articles are directly written (at least the initial drafts) by the very people who coded the APIs (since who knows them and can document them better?) Still, whatever be the case, the fact remains that those are articles proof-read and released by Microsoft itself and have its official stamp of approval.

Till now you have only provided your personal opinion about what is 'right' or 'wrong' according to you, but you haven't provided any shred of documentary proof or facts to support your opinion. If you say Alt+Access Key is 'wrong', then why is it 'wrong'? You have conveniently never mentioned any real reasons for thinking so.

Yes, the two methods are 'different' simply because they require the keys to be pressed separately or together, but internally as I have noted above, there is no difference at all in how programs/Windows handles the two. I don't want to drag this discussion out any further, so unless you can provide links to some official documents that support your claim of one way being 'wrong' and the other being 'right', it's pointless to continue.

Stefan wrote:

And as always with computers, many things mixed up as time goes by and guidelines are only... well, "guidelines" but not craved in stone

I whole-heartedly agree. However, in this case the guidelines do make practical sense, which is why they're followed by all professional app developers all over the world. I don't know which particular text editors you're referring to repeatedly, but if they also assign different actions to Alt+F and Alt,F (or any other letter), then yes, IMO their devs are very much crazy if they've done it deliberately and not as a mistake. In this case I think it was very much a mistake/oversight by Denis.

So if you can point out any docs that specifically state that Alt+F is 'wrong' and Alt,F is 'right', then I'm interested otherwise it's useless repeating the same thing ad infinitum. As for ReNamer, let's leave it to Denis to decide, shall we? If he deliberately chooses to keep the keys the same, then obviously no-one else can do anything. However, that wouldn't change my opinion and I would still think it's the wrong thing to do. End of story.

Last edited by Andrew (2010-08-30 17:55)

Stefan · 2010-08-31 07:05

Hi Andrew

Andrew wrote:

I just wanted to let you know that nowhere to my knowledge is it mentioned that Alt,Access Key is the 'right' way

I have no link for you so you can check if it is written down somewhere.
But you can try it on your own: just press the 'Alt'-key alone (and maybe release it again)
You will see accelerators (underlined chars) , then you can choose in all tranquillity
which accelerator key you want to press. That's all.
And that's the proof that 'Alt' then 'key' is an valid shortcut. (e.g. 'Alt,F')

And this is the right way to use the menu accelerators, then see:
If you will use the menu accelerators by pressing 'Alt+key' together (like 'Alt+F')
then you didn't would need the underline chars shown in the menu or dialog.
But they are there after you press 'Alt' for right this purpose.
- Press 'Alt'
- look and chose the right accelerator and press them
Only because you already knows that there is something like 'Alt+F' you can press them both together.
An novice user didn't would do that, because he didn't know that there is 'F' for 'File'-menu.
This user have to press 'Alt' and then look for the right next key to press.

Andrew wrote:

but all users expect Alt+F to work the same way as Alt,F

So i think not "all users expect" the same things you already know because you are familiar with such things.

Whereas pressing 'Alt+key' together is an direct shortcut to an command, not to an accelerator.
They work the same as you mentioned and i agree, but only for you convenience.

CU

SafetyCar · 2010-09-01 10:11

Mmmm, sorry, but do you think this discussion has much sense? I mean, I'm not even sure you have different ideas. (Just saying that maybe doesn't worth this time )

It's clear that ALT shortcuts are usually very problematic. In my opinion them should be reserved just to menus just to avoid this things (and even though in some programs will give problems because of having same key letter repeated in the same menu ). I think to use it in the windows menus and known uses in windows is the most comfortable and easy for every one. And with the Ctrl+F free...

Last edited by SafetyCar (2010-09-01 10:17)

Andrew · 2010-09-02 22:16

SafetyCar wrote:

Mmmm, sorry, but do you think this discussion has much sense? I mean, I'm not even sure you have different ideas. (Just saying that maybe doesn't worth this time )

Yes, this entire discussion is pretty pointless as I have noted above, and only arose because of my objection to the part that I have quoted twice in bold red. According to me there is nothing at all 'wrong' with zillions of users worldwide using Alt+Key as a quicker alternative to Alt,Key, but apparently some folks think for some reason (not mentioned why) that there's something 'wrong' with the former method (no idea what though) and the latter is the only 'right' way to do it. One would expect that if you boldly state that something so many people do is 'wrong', you would also need to say why exactly it is supposedly 'wrong'. You can't just get away with stating opinion as fact without providing solid proof, you know!

SafetyCar wrote:

It's clear that ALT shortcuts are usually very problematic. In my opinion them should be reserved just to menus just to avoid this things (and even though in some programs will give problems because of having same key letter repeated in the same menu ). I think to use it in the windows menus and known uses in windows is the most comfortable and easy for every one. And with the Ctrl+F free...

Exactly what I've been saying all along. It's a simple issue really, so I was amazed that someone would object saying that the current way is fine, and that Alt+Key is 'wrong'.

I wish this forum provided a way for thread starters to simply lock their own topics...

den4b Forum

#1 2010-08-26 19:23

Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#2 2010-08-26 21:17

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#3 2010-08-28 21:49

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#4 2010-08-29 09:40

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#5 2010-08-29 22:32

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#6 2010-08-30 16:55

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#7 2010-08-30 17:49

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#8 2010-08-31 07:05

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#9 2010-09-01 10:11

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

#10 2010-09-02 22:16

Re: Incorrect keyboard shortcut

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